Dec 23, 2011
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More on Line Seizure - comments from experts
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Ken,
I think John from NJ is a little confused. GSM is actually a cellular signal, not a radio. Although it can be reliable at times, it is not always 100%, as you may know when you are attending any major sporting event and trying to get any type of cellular signal. I believe the best solution to wean off the 'Ma Bell teat' as John so elegantly put it, is to provide for two separate modes of communication, i.e. IP and GSM. Putting all of your eggs in the Mesh Radio or the GSM/GSM basket isn't the best way to protect people and property. Utilizing multiple technologies allows you to confidently give your customer the peace of mind they deserve in knowing they are protected at all times. Did I mention that these IP/GSM technologies hand shake every 45-50 seconds, which is something the POTS lines of old were never required to do.
Sean in STL
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Hi Ken...
Thanks for all the great information and for facilitating discussion on all of these issues.
I just have to point out something about John from NJ's comment on GSM: "And about the only way to defeat it would be to wrap the house in Mylar."
We all need to remember that carrying a GSM signal jammer in your pocket may very well be easier than locating and cutting a phone line and these portable, pocket sized, battery powered jammers can be purchased online for less than $50.
I agree that we shouldn't be relying on POTS lines but we all need to remember that GSM isn't foolproof either... If companies are truly concerned with their clients' safety (and not just protecting their own liability) there should always be TWO or more ways for your signals to be transmitted. We are the trusted professional and shouldn't mislead customers that GSM is tamper-proof. (Not saying John does.)
Rich from Central New York
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Hello Ken,
I'm a first time caller, long time listener. As all others reading this, I enjoy the comments and feedback on the topics that make it to my mailbox.
I have one remark about the comment of GSM being 100% reliable and the comment it towards the technology, not the author of that message. There was a period of about three years where all I did was concentrate on GSM radios in NYC and I've found it not be very reliable. With all the ongoing cell tower maintenance and radio traffic and interference, at one point or another almost every radio would skip a 'check-in' and that to me doesn't prove to be 100%. As anyone that does work in NYC knows, you can install a GSM radio on the 32nd floor of an office building on Jan 1st with a signal strength of -72DB and come back on June 30th and find two new buildings have been erected on either side of your customer and now the signal strength is marginal at -101DB. We used several brands of radios and more than one provider, no difference. Do I think GSM is a good idea considering the alternatives? Absolutely. But like everything else in this world, especially in the line of work we're all in, NOTHING is 100% reliable.
Rocco
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Ken,
I appreciate the emails and the informative forum you create. We monitor some grocery stores and other commercial properties and we also set the LINE SEIZURE up at outlined in the code mentioned. After doing so we found that they changed the lines to digital and many of the ones that claim to be POTS actually change to digital a couple of hundred feet after you leave the building. We had several stores that had their phone network switch to digital and since DACT dialers are not listed to be used with digital lines sometimes they will work and other times you run into problems. We had one where they had features on the line and they were forwarding that line to a cell phone which caused additional issues. We are now offering the following options since it looks like POTS lines will be a thing of the past by 2017 or so.
Radio communication as long as we can get good signals (depends on network and area)
Cellular Backup combined with another method
High Supervision Cellular that communicates every 5 minutes as sole communication
Internet Monitoring that poles every 90 seconds or so also as sole communication
Analog lines or a combination of analog and one of the other methods
Some of the methods allow other communication as a backup such as SMS text if the cell service will not send
Needless to say when your monitoring Fire Alarm you should also have the methods approved by the local AHJ Fire Marshal. The code has new information about these other methods and we really do need to look to the future as mentioned in the other comments.
Sincerely,
Larry G. Love
NICET II Fire Alarm
Master Fire Alarm Tech - State of Utah
American Security & Fire, Inc. SLC, UTAH
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Ken,
Regarding line seizure, 12/22/2011:
Those who think line seizure should be possible in 100% of cases have not encountered a phone line that's connected to multiple buildings, so-called "dual service." This commonly occurs during an interval when people are moving, but some campus-type phone systems use it on a permanent basis. Achieving line seizure in that situation requires the phone company to deliver the dial tone to an interface in the building with the alarm and then pick it back up as returned from the alarm system; and then route it to that building's devices and also take it back to the pole and deliver dial tone to the second or successive building.
First, although it may be physically possible, it's not going to happen. Putting all codes aside, it won't be worth the aggravation (take it from the voice of experience), expense and ongoing vigilance to keep it from getting screwed up (take it from our Department of Unexpected Results).
Second, assuming the telco would do that, see what happens when you tell them you also want line seizure on the same line for an alarm panel in the other building.
Lou Arellano
Reliance Alarm Co.
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Ken,
Regarding line seizure, 12/22/2011:
Those who think line seizure should be possible in 100% of cases have not encountered a phone line that's connected to multiple buildings, so-called "dual service." This commonly occurs during an interval when people are moving, but some campus-type phone systems use it on a permanent basis. Achieving line seizure in that situation requires the phone company to deliver the dial tone to an interface in the building with the alarm and then pick it back up as returned from the alarm system; and then route it to that building's devices and also take it back to the pole and deliver dial tone to the second or successive building.
First, although it may be physically possible, it's not going to happen. Putting all codes aside, it won't be worth the aggravation (take it from the voice of experience), expense and ongoing vigilance to keep it from getting screwed up (take it from our Department of Unexpected Results).
Second, assuming the telco would do that, see what happens when you tell them you also want line seizure on the same line for an alarm panel in the other building.
Lou Arellano
Reliance Alarm Co.
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Video Record Verification
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Ken
SPECO uses a Digitial Verification when you move a recorded event to a Flash Drive or CD. This authenticates the video file exported from the unit. They claim this makes it admissable in court.
John Elmore
Security By Elmore Inc
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Gas Detection
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Ken
A very good move on your part to call the fire department when you smelled gas. We always say better to report the event rather than have friends talk about you at the funeral......
Secondly there are specialized gas detectors that will respond to natural gas and propane in ADDITION to the deadly Carbon Monoxide.
The smell of gas is caused by a chemical injected into it to make it smell for notification purposes. (In one recent case a PROPANE EXCHANGE TANK company recalled several thousand units because the smell agent was left out during filling.)
The central station response is as varied as there are central stations.
When CO detectors were first introduced most fire departments dispatched a full engine company. Now with education, training and better equipment the standard dispatch for many fire companies is 1 squad or one engine, personnel and monitor equipment and exhaust fans to locate the source and mitigate the danger.
The installing dealer should contact the local fire officials and ask what their policy is on gas detection notification so that they may inform the customer what to expect on alarm dispatch. I would never allow my central station to cancel a dispatch of a gas alarm on the mere assurance from a customer that there was NO problem. We would notify authorities that an alarm was received and the premises contact stated they are ok, but request a monitor anyway.
Joel Kent
FBN Security Co LLC
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Contract question
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Hello Ken,
We started intrusion and monitoring in 2011. My insurer requires a defense provision, specifically exculpatory and loss limitations. Will your sales or monitoring contract be the best to start?
Thanks,
Joe
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Answer
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Best place to start and best place to finish.
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Canceling subscribers
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Ken
Can you give me steps and or protocol for cancellation of clients who will not pay their bills, this is for the state of TN. We have hundreds of clients with outstanding balances.
Thank you.
Jeannette
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Answer
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Give them specific time to cure their default. Send final letter - email - fax that service will be terminated at specific date and time; then terminate and sue them.
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Frost alarm question
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Ken,
Here in central California one of the main resources of the region is citrus. During the winter months 'Frost' is a major enemy to the citrus crop and requires continual monitoring to ensure that the fruit is not damaged. As of now, the farmer has to drive around the numerous groves checking temperatures all night. I have had several subscribers request that we build a 'Frost alarm' to be placed out in the grove. The alarm will essentially call (GSM) the farmer when the temperature reaches the target degree. What are the legalities regarding the monitoring of frost conditions for an agriculture crop? What kind of contract should I have to protect us? I enjoy all of your emails, and look forward to you input on this issue.
anon
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Answer
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May need new contract for this one!!! I don't see anything special about this alarm detection device, and the potential for liability is the same for all types of alarms - here the farmer is going to expect your device to work and save his crop from frost. Don't design the detection device with a hair blower - then you'll really be in trouble. On a more serious note, your contract will specify that environmental conditions can affect the device and communication, that the system has limitations and the contract will have all of the protective provisions commonly found in alarm contracts.
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Employment contract question
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Ken
I was just wondering in the Employment Contract does it have a non compete clause in it?
Christina
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Answer
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Yes
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PERS Licensing
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Ken,
A lot of state alarm licensing requirements have to do with the installation, service and maintenance of alarm systems aside from monitoring station licensing which is handled by the central station. When a cellular PERS device/GPS tracker requires no installation, service or maintenance to function properly is a license still necessary? For instance, if I am a dealer for a state licensed central station and I provide a cellular PERS device and ship it off to a customer who simply has to turn it on and it works and no installation is required, am I obligated to obtain an alarm license for the state that customer lives in if the state requires it?
this is a sensitive issue, please do not use my name or any identifier whatsoever if you want to post this to your daily email.
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Answer
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You answered your own question when you concluded that the state required licensing for PERS. If there is a state license then you need to get one if you are entering into a contract, which you are, for monitoring the PERS unit.
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Comments on Georgia Jury awards $9 million in rape case against central station
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Is this jury award subject to appeal? It appears the central station did all they could do.
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yes
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Another case showing our screwed-up justice system. Nine million dollars award to dumb woman who saw booze bottle and other signs of break-in, was notified about alarm, and still entered the house. Dumb woman was driven around town by DWI guy, then driven home and raped until the drunk fell asleep. Sounds like they enjoyed the night out. Well planned extortion case!
Dusan
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First of all, Ken you do a great job keeping us in this industry informed. Please continue on behalf of us in the alarm industry.
Regarding the case of the jury ruling against the central station in the burglary/rape case; was the alarm company absolved of any responsibility? Common sense would say yes since the alarm system did activate eight times. I'm just curious.
R. Peter Stone, National Technical Manager
CWSI, LLC
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I think only the central station was sued
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BY THE WAY, by sending me an inquiry by email I assume you want your issue circulated. If you want private advice, and you are prepared to pay for it, you can simply indicate that.