December 9, 2011
*************
I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who contributes to this forum. I do my best to circulate all questions and comments. I couldn't do it without your help. Happy holidays and healthy and prosperous New Year.
**************
Comments
**************
Ken,
I'll vote with Joel. Michigan's Electrical Licensing Act (PA 217 of 1956) defines a fire alarm system as "a system designed to detect and annunciate the presence of fire." Adding a fire detection device to a burglar alarm system, by definition, creates a fire alarm system (described as a combination fire alarm system in NFPA 72), and is then subject to all the legal requirements of a fire alarm system.
Thanks!
Daniel G. Decker, CFPS, CPP, SET
Safety Systems, Inc.
***************
Ken,
In response to the below issue, we rented a room in the rear of a store for storage, installed a burglar alarm and one smoke detector, connected to a central station. The central station being a NYC Approved Fire monitoring company immediately refused to take the smoke detector signal. They said any signal going to the NYC FD that was not residential required a terminal assignment and the system must be filed and approved as a fire alarm system. We had an idea this would happen, we had hoped that one detector would not have to meet that requirement, but it did.
Lets keep in mind, most codes state that the AHJ has jurisdiction, so, check with them as well.
So in NYC, other than residential (one and two family homes) a single smoke detector is a fire alarm, and must be filed and approved with the NYC Department of Buildings and Fire Department.
The last I heard (several years ago), in Nassau County NY you could not have a combination burg/fire panel for commercial, never checked for residential.
When NY started licensing and required taking training, during the NBFAA classes they said that once you add any device to an alarm all aspects that had to do with fire must meet fire alarm code, such as wiring to the key pad which controls the alarm.
Lets face it, even one detector, who do you want responding, the fire department, so, in our opinion it is a fire alarm. (Yeah yeah we tried to slip one by, but couldn't).
Code books are a guide, a minimum.
I remember the horses with wings,, wasn't that Flying A gasoline.
Jeff
ACME FIRE
NY
*************
Ken,
thanks as always for this valuable forum. Our company is licensed in many states, so we have a broad perspective on the way licensing requirements vary from state to state. For instance, in Florida and NJ, you are specifically allowed to add fire sensing devices (heats and smokes) to a residential burg system (one or two family homes) while holding only a burg license. In Delaware, adding a single smoke to a burg system requires the Delaware fire license. Go figure. And as for the batteries, NFPA 72 states that when you add even one fire sensing device to the same residential burg system, that makes it a fire system by definition: now the panel requires a 24 hour battery, not a 4 hour battery. But do all the roughly 13,000 installing companies in the US (including the door knockers, or even the "big guys") add the more expensive 24 hour battery every time they add a smoke to a resi system? I think we all know the answer. We all know that enforcement of such codes can be lax, or even non-existent. That is one advantage of using Interlogix equipment: their panels come with the 24 battery by default, including the Simon XT. Makes our life easier, since we sell a lot of fire detection devices.
Peter
***********
There is lot of grey area in definition of fire alarm. Burglar alarm should not be used to report fire, but what should be reported if the system (audio discriminator) was triggered by noise of battery operated smoke detector required by law? What should be reported when monitored cctv camera shows smoke or flame? The law will never be clear or up to date on these issues. All the law specifies is how much is the fine.
Dusan
**************
In some UL applications smoke detectors are used as a burglary device, detecting smoke in a vault for instance. We would not dispatch the Fire Department but the Police Department as it would be considered an attempt to drill or blow your way into the vault.
Cheers,
Sean Bryant
*************
Hi Ken,
I enjoy starting off my day with reading my email and of course your newsletter. I have been in the alarm business for almost 30 years and an instructor for NTS (National Training School) for about 20 years. I teach the NTS courses for those wanting to get licensed in New York. I am making comments only for myself. If you add a smoke detector to a residential burglar alarm system then the primary function of that system becomes Fire. As such you must abide by all the pertinent codes regarding residential Fire alarms. Some of the differences between residential Burg and Fire are: 4 hours standby time-Burg. 24 hours Fire. Burg you may use Burg cable (check with AHJ). Fire you must use fire rated cable for any devices that are powered directly off the control. There are many more. We are considered professionals in the eyes of the courts. All lot of alarm companies are designing inadequate burg and fire alarm systems. This gives the lawyers for the insurance companies a field day when there is a loss.
Bruce Knies
Securi-Com Inc.
Purdys, NY
*************
To all interested parties who wish say that a duck is no more than a horse with webbed feet and a desire to swim....
...can not by desire make the horse into a duck.
Read a post to Kens' forum of at least 8 years ago. Addressed herein-below is the issue of suitability concerning fire alarm systems. Most building codes (and that presently includes New York State) essentially require compliance with standards even if the system is voluntary. In fact, they additionally required that systems which have become abandoned must be removed. Establishing a false sense of security preempts installing the desired system unless it is done as if required. I get very concerned and extremely annoyed when suppliers, contractors and monitoring stations state in some form (whether written, said or otherwise indicate) words similar to "And we'll throw in a smoke detector so that you home is also monitored for fire". It's kind of like saying that if you go to the local automotive supply house, purchase and aftermarket horn and compressor, install it in you Audi and now say that it's a Tractor Trailer. Simply stated "adding a smoke detector to a burglar alarm or security system does NOT (NOT) make it a fire alarm system.
This isn't opinion but fact. All those who wish to believe otherwise are deluding themselves and if that converts to business practice warrants allegations of "incompetence". Eagerly I would welcome rebuttal but if you play then please cite code, standards and/or other legal references. Today, most of my practice is in New York State, New York City and adjoining venues. However, the past 5 decades of experience is across the United States and on other continents as well so this statement is not about NYC or any other restrictive locale. The professionals who "do fire" know better. Others who are uninformed or misinformed should either stay with what they DO know or learn what fire alarm and codes are all about. "GGOGG". "Get Good or Get Gone". It doesn't matter what you call it but a horse is a horse, an Audi is an Audi and anything similar to but not exactly like a fire alarm system is not a fire alarm system.
Gentlemen,
This is an age old question and one whose answer has specific intent. Even if a systems is not required, it must meet all requirements applicable for that system. Many burglar alarm panels are also listed by a nationally recognized testing laboratory such as FM or UL for the intended use. They contain circuits which are monitored for integrity, do make provision for appropriate notification appliance circuits and place fire alarm signals is priority ahead of non-fire alarm signals.
The topic comes up regularly in discussion with fire officials and other Authoriities Having Jurisdiction. Consider Ken's point about the subsriber's expectation of system performance. FDNY and sepcifically RS 17-12 of the Building Code of the City of New York has to date prohibited the use of combination systems and these are actually listed for intended use. RS17-12 is houshold and, for the most part, the City has lookled the other way concerning enforcement. Commerical applications using combination systems require a variance and are usually not granted.
There is a legal definition of a fire alarm system and it resides in Reference Standard 55-1 of the New York State Building Code (Codes, Rules and Regulations of the State of New York, Volume 9, Executive). This Reference Standard is NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, 1993 edition. On page 13, Section 1-4 states "Fire Alarm System. A system or portion of a combination system consisting of components and circuits arranged to monitor and annunciate the status of fire alarm or supervisory signal initiating devices and to initiate appropriate response to those signals." Automatic Fire Detectors of the smoke sensing type are initiating devices.
The same chapter states: "Initiating Device. A system coponent that originates transmission of a change of state condition, such as a smoke detector, manual fire alarm box, supervisory switch, etc." Yes, you probably can go to Home Depot for ten dollars and purchase a battery operated smoke detector. Most of these devices do not have contacts to interface to initaiting device circuits and are definitely not considered by listing agencies for use in systems. Power is not supervised and are totally incompatible with the control equipment. There are thousands of accounts of battery operated smoke detectors in private dwellings failing due to expired batteries. The result has been significant loss of life. It is impossible to accurately state that connecting individual devices to another panel does not form a system considering the earlier definition of Fire Alarm System.
But the entire issue of required vs. non-required systems and what has to comply with what has caused confusion for many years. Those most familiar with The National Fire Alarm Code and specifically the many committees responsible for actions regarding updating of same unanimously agree, that whether the system is required or non-required it must be installed in a code compliant fashion. NFPA 72 is in cycle now and the Fundamentals Committee (resposnible for Chapter 1) has voted to include language stating that whether required or not required the system must be installed per code. Those are not the precise words but that is the intent.
The argument Tom makes for using devices and connecting them to a burglar alarm panel seems logical until one examines why these methods an generally unacceptable. Unrealistic expectation of the end user is but one of the problems. I know of one very large, international company whose sales staff repeatedly informed users and subscribers that the system was non-compliant and even had the customer sign a statenment to that affect. Unfortuneately when systems did not perform to expectations due to such non-compliance it was the installaing company who stood the loss, compensated the subscriber for damages yet only modified their selling techniques after the losses became staggering. I know of no particular instance where injury or loss of life occurred due to neglect by that company but have heard, annecdotally, of such happening to other firms. Court rulings, inspite of the signed statement, took the company to task because it was the enterprise and not the customer who had the expertise and should have know better.
I hope that provides some further insight and light about Tom's question.
Respectfully
James M. Mundy, Jr., President
CPP, CDT, CFPS, SET, SFPE
Asset Protection Associates, LTD
Wantagh, New York
*******************
Ken
I am wondering what happens when/if that one smoke detector is activated? Does the central station call in an "intrusion" alarm and such and such address? Probably not, they would most likely call in an activated "Fire Alarm" right??? I think the main difference would be loss of life issue associated with a fire. Not to say intruders don't carry guns, but hopefully you see my point.
Perhaps installing a few smoke detectors that are stand alone and therefore NOT connected to the main system.
Best,
Chris