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COMMENTS ON WISDOM OF NON COMPLIANT FIRE ALARMS FROM JUNE 16, 2015 ARTICLE
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Ken
I have never had anyone express my views on commercial fire better than Gene from Reliable Alarm. [Gene's sage remarks are republished below]. In our town we have the same situation. Dozens of small businesses that can’t install fire systems because of the all or nothing policy. I have argued for 20 years with the local fire marshall to no avail. Its all about insurance companies and liabilities, thats all it is. Life safety really takes a back seat in these situations. Like a lot of things if you really want to understand commercial fire systems, follow the money.
DN
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Ken
With regard to the fire alarm all or nothing by AHJ.
Life Safety 101 specifies the alarm requirements for different classes of occupancy and the system, notification and emergency forces notification requirements. These are MINIMUM requirements. Granted if there is NONE required and you install 1 device you are EXCEEDING THE CODE. However as the EXPERT you know that one smoke detector in a residence is not full protection. ((DETECTION)))
The client however asks the insurance carrier for CREDIT because they have installed a "FIRE ALARM" where none is required.
Here is the CATCH 22.
When there is a loss the insurance company is going to look to the alarm company for redress because you installed a system that did not provide sufficient DETECTION of the fire in time to prevent a loss. (Hope you are using Kens contract.....)
Some AHJs will think as Gene does that ANYTHING is better then NOTHING. This is a valid concept. However as the PROFESSIONALS we have to weigh the benefit vs risk of installing a non compliant system.
NFP{A 72 and 101 change periodically and it is not unreasonable to believe that at some point the standard will be modified to allow the installation of ANYTHING where NONE is required. It makes sense. Do you know what edition your state is operating under at he present time? Some states are still under NFPA70 of 1995 and NFPA 72 of 2002.
From the basement of my slab office.
Joel Kent
FBN
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Ken:
I read your email update daily and you cover many issues for us in the business. I want to share with you a recent opportunity I had to bid on a Marijuana Growing not dispensary facility in Arizona. I visited the site, investigated what was published as to the “regulations” and decided to bid on the work with several caveats as there was a clause in the bid that stated “ all work and materials MUST meet city, county, state and federal regulations.” I asked the firm for a copy of their specifications and the necessary regulations and they were either unable to supply them or simply refused. They merely wanted a quote based on a traditional Alarm and CCTV system.
I pointed out several flaws in their existing alarm system which could be breached without much effort and a review of their planned CCTV system was inadequate. They chose to accept a bid from another firm which I expected.
I am not certain if I could have been held accountable if they failed to adequately protect their facility and their products. But, I was not willing to take a chance on this evolving industry.
In closing, there are no universal Arizona regulations which I searched for in the “Growing” industry. There are requirements for the dispensing side.
Thanks for your ongoing information
Sincerely,
Lee Bryant
Wired-On-The-Rim Enterprises
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Ken
I usually refrain from joining a particular thread on any blog, but Gene (Reliable Alarm)comments on fire alarms, codes and AHJ's piqued my interest. I'm not sure where Gene works, but here in NY State, commercial fire alarms are governed by codes (rules which guide us as to when and where a fire alarm is required, and how it is to be installed) which have the force of law. In NY, we look at the occupancy type and population load (number of souls in the building) and based on that information, we look at the NYS (or local if there is one) fire code, which tells us if we need a fire alarm system, and if so, what kind (manual or automatic of both). We then have a code (NFPA-72) which tells us how to install (location of pulls, smoke spacing, for example). If a system is deemed not required, then it is voluntary and the requirements are less stringent. For example, you are allowed to choose where protection will be installed in a voluntary system, and full coverage may not be required.
Allowing fire alarm installation without proper engineering design (checking codes and designing to meet same), and inspection to assure conformance with that design is a disaster waiting to happen, for the end-user, the installing company and the industry (I can see the headlines now----FIRE ALARM DEFECTIVE - TWO DIE...... Just what our industry needs.... If folks like Gene feel that fire alarms and their requirements are too difficult, then it may be best that his firm does not enter that market.. There are many professionals in this industry who will willingly take that work. Have the system properly engineered (NICET Level IV or Fire Protection Engineer) and the follow the design to the letter.... you will sleep well and your company will get a reputation for quality...
Joseph Hayes, CPP, PSP, SET
NICET Level IV Fire Alarm Designer
Find us fast in The ALARM EXCHANGE in the Technical Support category
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HERE IS GENE'S COMMENT:
COMMENT ON NON COMPLIANT CCTV AND SMOKE DETECTORS FROM MAY 28 2015 ARTICLE
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Ken
With reference to the post regarding fire alarm systems, I agree with Steve, that we are supposed to be the experts .... however, something that I've never been able to rationalize is what Steve mentioned,.... that "all or nothing" is an acceptable requirement of AHJ's. Doesn't common sense say that "something is better than nothing"? I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of small businesses that don't have "any" fire protection for the only reason that ..... "we the experts" are not allowed to install anything less than a full fledged fire alarm system at the risk of the end user being fined and/or us being fined and/or losing our license, and/or being sued. What kind of reasoning can one come up with to justify this "all or nothing" requirement? Am I missing something?
For instance, you've got a small Deli or stationary store or any small retail store or office ....maybe family owned. They'd like to put in a few smoke detectors that report to central station...... and ..... what? They can't do it???? They either have to spend 2, 3, 4, 5 thousand dollars or NOTHING?
Even if the system approaches some semblance of a "life safety" system (which isn't likely because remember, its a SMALL business where yelling "FIRE!" will probably be the first alert) the system is more likely wanted to protect assets in the store when no one is there. I just can't see the reasoning that wont allow that.
And I DO realize that we can't just allow installing "anything" to run rampant. But how about different "levels" of qualifying fire alarm system requirements with lesser standards to allow the more sensible reasoning of "something is better than nothing" to prevail, ....... and which certainly trumps "all or nothing? How about standards that are gauged by the type of business, the square footage, the number of employees, etc. Two or three levels below a full system .... should do it.
With 47 years in this trade I personally don't do commercial fire alarm systems any more because I can better utilize the time and effort spent on related paper work and "do-overs" demanded by fickle AHJ's. I can run a much more profitable business without the aggravation of having to deal with pompous jerks that typically fill the ranks of Fire Marshals. Another reason it works out better now is because ...... I'm a nice guy, I'm a nice guy, I'm a nice guy, I'm a nice guy ...... and then I'm NOT!
Accepting bureaucratic indifference, condescending attitudes and intentional and non intentional ignorance derived from a position of power, is not on my list of personal attributes.
I would be interested in hearing if there ever has been any discussion or effort to set up a tiered standard for commercial fire alarms that would at least provide "some" protection to small businesses, rather than ........ NONE.
How much business would THAT, generate .....!
Gene
Reliable Alarm
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