VOIP

Ken,

First I want to thank you for pulling together all these notes from other

companies and in some cases adding your input.

This note is of particular interest to me since we have had several

problems lately with this and another similar application. We had a client

get their phone line VOIP from cable and they also swore it would be just

like a typical POTS line. We had two major issues pop up. First was the

fact that around 5 in the morning something cycled in their local equipment

that would cause our panel to send in via our backup radio a loss of phone

service. That had to be a power supply issue and no one can seem to explain

what it was and of course we get blamed for malfunctioning alarm equipment.

The second thing that happened is they lost cable service for 2 days and

the client complained our panel did NOT report a loss of the phone line. We

have our panels set to go into trouble if the line is lost for 2+ minutes

however the detection circuit that is part of the panel is happy when it

sees either 50 volts of on hook voltage or 23 mills of off hook current.

With the VOIP equipment at this location they of course have a local power

supply so even though the client lost their cable, the panel was still

happy with the voltage and current requirements being satisfied by the

local cable power supply. Solution was to order in a POTS line and

everything is fine now. VOIP is here to stay so panel manufactures and VOIP

providers are going to have to get their heads together on this one.

The second issue is a plant we installing a system in right now brings

their phone lines in over a T1 then a modem to emulate dial tone. We can

not hold the panel on line to program it because I am assuming the time

division process puling 6 lines off one T1. Works well for voice but did

not work well for data, even at that slow 300 baud rate most companies use

on their panels. I can not prove this is the cause however the panel

programs easily on a regular phone line so here again our solution is to

get back to a pots line and one less client provided backup power supply

(UPS) to depend on in time of power loss.

Doug B

 

more VOIP

 

Hello Ken,

Here is my comment on VOIP

We are a telecommunications equipment company not an alarm specific

company. I wanted to comment on the VOIP problems that alarm vendors may

experience.

The first item is that all VOIP connections are not of equal quality. You

can have calls that range from 8k to greater than 64k per call yet most

people look at VOIP as all the same. The major problem comes from the

marketing behind VOIP. When you get a plain old telephone line or POTS line

its the same across the country this is not the case for VOIP services. We

have seen an increase in problems reported by clients that turn out to be

VOIP issues not equipment problems. As a customer of any large carrier you

need to make sure that your lines are what you order. A POTS line is

circuit switched voice connection not a VOIP line delivered to you as a

POTS line. This is also true with many T1 and PRI circuits. Today many

companies are ordering integrated circuits that deliver voice and data over

the same facility. The carrier installs an Integrated Access Device or IAD

and either strips out channels or delivers to the customer’s telephone

equipment POTS lines or a digital hand off. In many cases the carrier uses

VOIP the problem is what speed codec is being used will affect the call

quality and that will definitely affect the alarm dialers. My suggestion is

to have your clients install a dedicated primary line (POTS) for the alarm

system. VOIP in some form for the right applications is the future of

telecom but it’s like the Wild West right now and when it comes to carrier

standards there is a huge disconnect.

Regards,

Ralph Meyers

President

Nu-TEL Communications of NJ, Inc.

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Everyone could go on forever telling VoIP horror stories but the reality is

that it (VoIP) is here to stay, The alarm industry seems to be stuck on

preserving there ancient methods of transmitting alarm signals. My personal

opinion is that ALL voice calls in the US will have some VoIP component to

them within 5 years and within 10 years the term POTS won’t exist in the

local telecom’s vocabulary. >From there perspective other then alarm

systems there is no reason not to move there, it saves them millions and

millions of dollars a month.

So the real reason for this post is that I see little being done to deal

with this. Alarm panel manufactures are still producing and designing dial

up controls, there IP solutions are so expensive that they are cost

prohibitive for most simple jobs. There is no organized effort that I know

of to get a standard done that the Telco providers would be forced to

support, yes I know there have been conversations with cable co’s but

that’s just to support existing formats not to come up with a really solid

solution.

I would urge all you to push on the panel manufactures to get together to

come up with a plan for transition including lower cost IP/RF solutions,

battery backed up IP equipment for the premise, installation best

practices, a complete solution that the industry can get behind because

otherwise just like the AMPS network going away the vast majority of alarm

dealers will get caught with there pants down and not a clue what to do

about it.

Off soap box

Morgan Hertel

The Command Center Inc

Corona CA

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Response to VOIP, BARF

Remember a power outage in a home will down the modem.......so......Battery

back UP.

? NOPE the cable company also has amps/repeaters on the phone poles that

have 4 hour battery back up...oppps, wonder when the last time those

batteries were changed...?

Mike

CSS

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I want to remind everyone that the VOIP warning is part of the Disclaimer

Notice you can get at www.alarmcontracts.com

 

This form is so important I decided to price it well below its value so

that everyone would be encouraged to get it and hopefully use it. Do your

company a favor and get the Disclaimer Notice today.

 

more VOIP comments

August 18, 2006

 

I doubt that VoIP providers and alarm manufacturers will ever agree on any

standard. Most likely alarm manufacturers will make panels connect directly

to Internet via Ethernet RJ45 just like access control system or network

camera. The problem with this setup is that you can't download the panel

unless the customer pays for static IP address (which is expensive). We're

back where we started. Drive to the site, push buttons and count beeps at

the keypad. Security systems are the lowest of low-tech. Even the big name

systems have many bugs (most likely due to constant software revisions) and

quite often the tech support doesn't know the system well enough to help.

How many times you spent hours troubleshooting something just to find out

that it is defective? Do you get thank you from the manufacturer? You're

lucky if they give you an RMA number. You lose time, pay shipping back and

forth and your customer suffers down time and is not happy with your work.

Manufacturers never lose a penny. You pay for.

VoIP - it is not just alarm that doesn't work. Fax doesn't work either and

businesses should have at least one POTS fax line. Use it for alarm.

Dusan

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Ken:

There has been MUCH discussion on the CSAA list server regarding the

problems encountered with VOIP/AOIP (alarm over IP);the programming issue

is more of an issue of non-conformity of the programming modem than speed.

I.e.; the VOIP does not like it, so, slower ain’t really better in this

case!! The solution (I know you are going to HATE me for this!!) using a

panel such as the BOSCH/RADIONICS or DMP that are able to up/down load over

IP. They each have the ability to switch from IP based to POTS based if the

IP goes down. We ALWAYS backup an IP panel with our radio (KP Electronics).

I sleep better knowing while there is a UL certificate in place with the IP

stuff, the IP stuff is NOT reliable enough (in my humble opinion) as of yet

for life- safety reporting..

With regards,

Joseph (Joe) Pfefer

Jade Alarm

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Ken,

Steve wrote to Mark, the longest diatribe that I have ever seen setting

forth his qualifications, Steve is defiantly a member of the alarm

industry! Then finally we get all the way down to the end and this is the

response after taking a swing at the "national association"?

And lastly. How many of you alarm guys are fully satisfied with your yellow

pages situation. And that pesky bill they send you for four headings each

month. Can I see a show of hands? Steve Affordable Alarms

It is obvious that Steve has not interacted with his local association or

the NBFAA! I can only assume that he is not a member of the NBFAA and when

he speaks of a "national association" it must be the group from Ohio or the

other group of states that has affiliated with disgruntled current and

former members of the NBFAA, which seems to be going nowhere.

AS for the NBFAA, the NBFAA responds (either positive or negative) to every

request that is made to it by its members. No request that I know of has

never not been given the courtesy of a response at the very least.

I invite Steve from Affordable Alarms (not cheap alarms) to contact me

directly or through this forum.

Bart A. Didden

A Past President of the NBFAA

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additional VOIP comments

August 18, 2006

 

Dusan,

There are several IP based products that to not require a static IP to

download, IP is in its infancy and some manufactures have not figured out

how to do this but they will. In the mean time buy those that do.

Fax is a known protocol and every VoIP provider that I know of has the

ability to provide fax capability to a VoIP customer event the non

facilities vendors like Vonage and Lingo can provide fax via there network.

Have a good weekend.

Morgan Hertel

The Command Center Inc

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Re: comments from Dusan

The comment was made that the customer must have a Static IP address. Not

necessarily so. I install a commercial phone system that has optional VOIP

extensions for remote sites, with NO static IP at the site. Although the

setup to get past local Firewalls can sometimes drive you crazy, The only

static required is at the “head” end, and the remote site “phones home”

from a DYNAMIC IP Address!

There is no reason (except that most of the alarm industry is 10 years

behind in technology) that alarm panels could not be manufactured in the

same fashion. Imagine, a Static IP at your alarm office that all of your IP

panels call into from Dynamic addresses just as you call a web site up.

Once the connection is made, it would remain connected with a tickler to

keep the connection open. No fancy Static’s at remote locations, etc. ( How

long have we all been using the Internet this way, and no manufactures have

capitalized on it ? ) It is unfortunate that we as an industry have fallen

soooooo far behind in the technologies that are available.

That being said, I still feel that IP is a less than desirable primary

means of transmission without a backup. We experience Web outages enough

that I don’t trust it. If you have to wait a couple hours to make a voice

telephone call because the Web is down, it’s quite different than waiting a

couple of hours to transmit a fire or hold-up alarm. Use the IP for sending

open and close reports? Absolutely, because in most cases they are merely

logged to the computer anyway, and are not nearly as critical (in most

cases) as the actual alarms. I hope that this does not fall on deaf ears;

the manufactures need to start addressing technology and the features that

we need to solve our clients problems because of the advancement of other

technologies that we have to work around. Quit putting your primary

interest towards making things cheaper. I want all of us to sell more

expensive products and be able to take regular vacations like my mechanic,

plumber, and HVAC contractor !

Thomas Doyle, President

FBN Systems, Inc.

Medina, Ohio 44258

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And on the C/O issue:

Ken,

Steve with Affordable Alarms makes a lot of good points. We don't install

CO detectors. If asked, we send them to buy a plug-in unit. I agree that

these are a false sense of security. Even if they work as intended, they

are only of value if you are home. The fire department shouldn't be called

for this, as some dealers set the systems up for. And, if the intent is to

alert the people in the house, then the plug-ins work just fine. The main

problem is those dealers (read trunk slammers) that think anything they can

sell to up their profits is fair game. Professionalism is right out the

window!! The "free system" guys have brought our industry down to level of

commodity suppliers instead of service providers. Its all about numbers to

them. I remember the days when that if you were a security system provider,

you were held to a much higher standard as a professional. Now we're just

another contractor; so sad.

Mike

Atlantic Security Systems

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