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comments on electricians, trunk slammers; prevailing wage

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Question:

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    In our area, and probably everywhere, when you build or remodel a residence, the AHJ requires those pesky battery operated smokes to be installed.  Although they are powered by the house AC they also have an akaline battery for back up.  These usually last about 3 years and then start beeping.  A lot of my customers think that it is their keypad for the alarm system causing the beep, so they call for service.  Since the contractor is long gone and the constant beeping, every 30 seconds, they really want the noise to stop and call the alarm company.  We have posted on our web site the most common of these for customers and hoped it would help, short story, it didn't.  There is also the battery standalone CO detectors that at the end of their life, about 5 years will beep.

    My question that you might put out on your great forum is, anyone have any ideas or methods of handling customers with that problem other than going there and installing new batteries for them?  Since the beeping is constant and very annoying they want immediate help.  I have even seen one brand of smoke that when one has a trouble beep they all do and the only way to find the original problem is to look at the lights on each unit.  (you could have up to 25 in one house)

    I don't think there is any liability involved, but I am probably incorrect on that.  I'm sure someone would sue you over those smokes.

    A remedy we have used, if we get in on the ground floor of the build or remodel, is to put a wired smoke/heat sensor with an audible everywhere required and using the fire module cause all to trip when one trips.  Since the power is from the alarm panel, it is much more manageable.  The only panel we have found that can do over 25 powered smoke/heat detectors is the Napco 1632 and was approved by the AHJ.  Of course, with less than 25 or so you can use Honeywell or DSC.  You could also use a commercial fire panel, but that would be overkill and the burg/fire combo might not work out with the AHJ.

John Elmore

Birmingham, Alabama

elmore@ix.netcom.com

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Response:

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    I have dealt with end of life and obsolete equipment in the Standard Form Contracts.  Batteries are excluded from the Service Contract, so you can charge for replacing batteries.  Regarding the technical issues, hopefully we can get a few comments with suggestions.

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comments on electricians, trunk slammers; prevailing wage

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    John from NJ wrote one of the best comments I read here. It shows his experience in several fields. This guy has common sense, clear mind, and he can express it in easy to follow text. That's a "keeper".

Dusan

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    A couple more thoughts...

    Its interesting to hear that the time for the unions is over and not needed anymore, especially from a number of business owners who recieved their training from the IBEW.  As a union contractor, we invest a significant amount of money in training.  There is a reason that many states have only approved IBEW training programs and not those from small open shops.  They are top notch and turn out the best technicians and electrians.

     As for "J", first, be a real man (or woman) and don't hide your indentity.  I am not sure where you get your numbers or where you learned math, but let me correct it.  IBEW L3 has the highest electrician journeyman rate in the country at $49/hr.  The employees are paid hourly for work on site within the jurisdiction less meals and breaks.  Their standard pay is 35 hours per week.  The vaction workshare program means they are currently working 38 weeks per year.  Multiply out and you get $65,170.00 per year.  That may still sounds high to some of you in the security business but lets look at it this way... when we work in a refinery or natural gas distribution plant, my employees have one shot to get it right, the right number of threads on each fitting, the right packing and sealing of each E-Y, the right enclosures and devices.  If it is not right... could be like lighting your BBQ just 10,000 times bigger.  You want to trust this to someone who does not have years of proper training, who makes $25k a year?  Next time you go to the Doctor or need surgery, ask the receptionist to do it as obviously the Doctor is overpaid.

     I am really getting fed up with going out to new customers sites and seeing the shotty workmanship that most of this industry finds acceptable.  No grounding, non-listed (UL) equipment, rat's nests of wiring, mag locks without proper releases, etc.  What are you going to say to the family of the people you killed when you are sentenced for involuntary manslaughter?  Think your contracts will save you?  I am sure Ken will tell you that if you violate the law and code, your contracts will not be of much help.

     If nothing else, I hope all of you think twice on the next job site and remember this post.  Quality and safety need to be the top priority in our industry if you want the respect of the Government and want them to recognize you.

EJN

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Ken,

    In my original note, I asked for some advice,  in hopes that someone would contribute something useful.  Yes,  I did state that as a taxpayer prevailing wage law offends me,  but I was mainly asking for advice.  No one has offered any help or advice of any kind; instead all of the pro-union and anti-union guys are having their usual tired argument with my post as an excuse.  I take strong offense to M Winger's characterization of my views as the "Kesterson mentality".  This wording is clearly meant to start a fight,  not promote useful discussion.  If I stirred this up by my short comment that I do not like prevailing wage,  I apologize for wasting everyone's time,  it was not my intent to start a heated argument,  just to clarify my position as I was asking for advice.

    Ken,  I'd like to modify my original statement about your newsletter.  I thoughly enjoy your newsletter for the helpful advice it gives and the courteous responses and discussions.  I DO NOT enjoy people taking their verbal gloves off and beating up on each other.  I'm a big boy,  I can take it,  but GENTLEMEN (and ladies) YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED.  If you have nothing useful to contribute please press delete.

    Have a nice day,  I will not take any further part in a discussion that helps no one.

Jeff Kesterson

Nightwatch Security & Telephone, LLC

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"HOW ABOUT THE TRUNK SLAMMING ALARM INSTALLERS LEAVE THE REAL WORK (PREVAILING WAGE) TO THE REAL (UNION) CONTRACTORS." -Scott Diamond

    Do I detect an effort to ward off competition?

    My great grandfather was a coal miner. I have no beef with the basic union purpose of standing up for the human rights of workers, although I think the unions have gone power mad. Before I could comment, the $52.00 an hour would have to be taken in context of the local economy, which is not stated. At $96.00 per man hour at contractors' cost, now you know why governments and school districts are so strapped for cash. If I were doing schools all the time, I'd want to have a 10 mil umbrella too, maybe more.

    But I'm not writing to bash unions, rather to rebut this uninformed remark. Scott's company apparently does fire systems on a regular basis, but he expresses a belief that all non-union alarm companies are trunk slammers and that only a union worker can do the job properly. I discern that he's ticked off that non-union contractors are the reason for a prevailing wage structure in the first place and they are making him compete.

    The union electricians I've known would have me believe that any union electrician can come off the bench to do any electrical job, including all scopes of fire alarms as well as high voltage vaults. Certainly a few, but not all union electricians will have the same fire alarm experience and training as a fire alarm dealer (or the dealer's regular employees - whether union or non-union) would have.

    Unlike many non-union electrical contractors, who simply farm out the fire alarm to a "real" fire alarm company (and which alarm company would usually be glad to let the electricians run the pipe and pull the wires), the union electricians seem to insist on doing it all themselves.

    I can't count on both hands how many times union electricians just wanted to protect their "electrical" turf by laying the pipe, pulling the wires and then getting home at 3:00, leaving us "little guys" to do the complicated part, like programming the fire panel, testing, certifying, and especially servicing and providing 24-hour support for the fire system.

    I would be more accepting of a statement like, "HOW ABOUT THE INEXPERIENCED ALARM INSTALLERS LEAVE THE REAL WORK (PREVAILING WAGE) TO THE REAL (FIRE ALARM) CONTRACTORS."

    That said, how else does a growing fire alarm business get that kind of experience without sticking one's foot in the pond?

    Regarding "PS: prevailing wage violations are criminal offence in NJ"...

    Sounds like another effort to ward off competition. Along with unnecessary and increasingly stringent fire and building codes, training requirements and licensing, here's another nail in the coffin of our economy and our core business. Who but the completely self-serving would promote such legislation? Wake up! The trend is unsustainable.

    -Anonymous