see below for --- follow up on new CO code / and How to handle change of batteries
********
Question:
********
Ken,
How should we (and all who are using the All in One) address the start of billing (All-in-One contract Section 4(b) ) and start of 3-year term on homes that are being built?
We get the contract, do the wiring & get paid. The house is ready for installation of the system, keypads, etc., move-in and start of service in a year. So the "... commencing on the first day of the month next succeeding the date hereof..." is not working here. I want to obligate them for service when they sign the contract but can't bill them the monthly as there is no system. I don't want the chance of them telling me a year from now: "there is only 2 years left on the contract (on a 3-year), you've just failed to bill us..." ?
LR
*******
Answer:
******
It's not likely that the All in One is the contract to use when dealing with a builder. The builder is going to sign the Sales Contract and pay for the installation, or at least most of it. Probably before the house is delivered the alarm system is going to be operating, even if monitoring is not provided.
However, it's the end user who should be signing the Monitoring Contract and also the Service Contract. If extras are requested by the end user then a Sales Contract is also in play.
The All in One works when the sale, monitoring and service are being contracted for at the same time. Of course a builder may finish the construction and need you to provide monitoring and service, in which case the All in One is fine.
If you want to delay the start of the recurring revenue feature of the services [monitoring or service ] then you can simply hand write on the contract that the starting date is upon .......... whatever event you want to make it; i.e., occupancy; issuance of the certificate of occupancy. You can make changes to the form contract as necessary and appropriate. If you're not sure then give me a call or send email.
******************
follow up on new CO code
*********
Ken,
Many dealers had bad experiences after adding CO detectors to their customers' systems. I know that after about 3 false alarms at one residence with no confirming evidence, we had to stop dispatching the fire department. I'm told the current generation of CO detectors is a lot more false-alarm-resistant than that first generation was. I will believe it after we get their long-term history under our belts. Also, the fire departments are evidently better trained and equipped (or will be as a result of new codes) to respond, diagnose and confirm CO alarms.
To give you an idea why dealers are so reluctant to endorse a rigid dispatch protocol, here's my story as published in my company newsletter.
Carbon Monoxide Detectors and Big Parties
The One Time you can’t confess to causing a false alarm…
I believe in using the products we sell. When they first became available, I installed some Carbon Monoxide detectors in our home.
Whenever we had a big gathering, the “CO” detector in the kitchen invariably went off with its great shrill sound. According to the instructions– and short of evacuating–the solution is to shut down the furnace, open some windows and let in fresh air, so that’s what I did every time, apologizing to my guests for the frigid temperature and poor air quality of our tightly-insulated home as I went about. This happened regularly for a good number of years.
Then one time during a large gathering the detector jolted me with piercing noise while I stood right by it. It dawned on me that I had just farted. I realized that each time it had gone off in the past, some gassy guest must have watched me buzz from room to room opening windows, too embarrassed to declare the alarm as false.
Luis Arellano, III,
*********
How to handle change of batteries
*************
Ken,
This is response to John/Alabama re: service call requests for the noise coming from battery smoke detectors not installed by him.
We too get these calls all the time. We also get calls for ANYTHING that tends to make a unidentifiable nose in a subscriber's home.
We found the best way to handle(even though it's a pain in the rear to have to talk to a customer at 3am about something we did not install!) like this:
We take the phone company approach. 'Mr. subscriber, did you check all the phones in your home to see if any of them are off-hook , etc. etc.' If the customer insists they have done everything they can but still want us out then we explain the charges to do so before we come out-just as the phone co. does.
And another observation: If you do go ahead & service that smoke(that you did not originally install) by changing that battery, etc. do you now 'own' it. Ken, I guess this is a question for you. If we do service a device that we did not originally install are we now responsible for it & it's operation?? (scary to think that you are now on the hook for the cheapest smoke detector that was every made on the planet that was installed by that contractor that is long gone) And try to convince the subscriber to upgrade, "why should I upgrade-it worked just fine before you serviced it"
Anyway, that's some of my take. On a lighter note, I would love to hear from others about the funniest calls for service they have gotten that where not related to their alarm installations. (One of my best was a bed frame that made a squeaking noise at odd times of the night!!!)
Thanks Ken,
Benji/Security Groups
**********
Ken
We have several clients who are happy to have us remind them each year that it is time to change the batteries in their 110 volt/9 volt smoke detectors. We check their entire alarm system at the same time. In Florida, with all the power outages, control panel batteries last about 3 years, but we load-test batteries on every service call anyway. Low batteries are one of the top equipment-related causes of false alarms. A momentary loss of A.C. power with a weak battery is a recipe for an open loop on the farthest detector from the alarm panel. The wireless transmitter batteries get changed every 3 years, or per manufacturers recommendation. Our battery program makes us profit and keeps the clients happier.
Many inspectors don’t allow only system smoke detectors powered by the alarm panel. Maybe this is due to the fact that if the client cancels monitoring and alarm system service, the smoke detectors could pretty quickly become useless.
We supply high-voltage/9 volt combo detectors to the electricians to install. One of the detectors has a relay for connection to the alarm panel. Be careful though and read the fine print in the detector instructions. We’ve only found Gentex units to be U.L. listed for attaching to a system. Many companies make the relays, but state that they are not listed for connection to a monitored system. If anyone knows of others, please let me know.
Ray Yauchler
Active Security Co.
************
Hi Ken,
This is in response to "How to handle change of batteries - any advice? from John Elmore
Birmingham, Alabama:
This post raises questions.
Ken, I think that John was asking you if there was any liability if he is changing batteries in electrician installed smoke detectors and/or CO detectors. I believe the units he's talking about are powered by 110VAC and not something that an alarm company would be licensed to install.
John states that the Napco Gemini 1632 has the capability of supporting up to 24 smoke detectors. If he's using two wire smokes, only 10 each are allowed on the two 2 wire zones. If we are talking about using 4 wire smokes, 25 of them would draw approximately one to one and a quarter amps or higher, depending upon which smokes you use and including the required end of line supervisory relays. Using two 7 ampere hours standby batteries Napco states that the allowable standby current is only 360 ma. with a standby time of 24 hours. This doesn't allow for keypads and any other powered devices nor that the allowable alarm current of 280 ma would not be sufficient to power the quantity of sounders, that would put out the required db rating within a structure large enough to require 25 smoke detectors. The above conditions are worsened if the smoke detectors have built in sounders.
Can auxiliary power supplies be used to augment the power capability of the 1632? If so, then I wonder how the condition of the auxiliary standby batteries is monitored and what the reason is that any other alarm panels cannot be used, using the same method. The limiting of two wire smokes per zone is usually indicated by the panel manufacturer. The limiting of four wire smoke detectors is limited by the amount of current draw and standby time. There are ways of doing this, of course but by the time you do everything that's required by code, I'm guessing that you may as well use a fire panel that's rated to do the job.
I'm assuming that the 1632 panel was decided upon with the approval of the AHJ which raises the age old question of how much do these guys really know and if they approve something that is questionable ( such as the above) is it the alarm installing companies liability that is at risk ----- and why not the AHJ?
Additionally, I wonder about the AHJ allowing an alarm panel with smoke detectors being used in place of the usual electrician installed 110VAC smoke detectors (and CO detectors). I've occasionally run into this in my area also. My thoughts are: If the AC smoke detectors are installed, they may fail somewhere down the line and if the home owner chose, he would actually have to physically disable them all, one by one, to stop them from giving alert warning beeps, thus disabling the system. In other words, it's easer to fix the system then disable it. If alarm system smoke (and CO) detectors are installed instead and in place of the AC powered units, all the home owner has to do is disable ( or neglect, or on some systems, just push the rest button, or disconnect a couple of wires, etc) the alarm system and the entire system is down. It seems to me that for the AHJ to accept alarm system smoke detectors in place of the AC powered units is not a good decision. This brings us back to question of the credibility of AHJ's and their lack of understanding of how alarm systems actually work.
To answer Johns question, I do not get involved with 110VAC devices that I'm not licensed to install. I will tell the homeowner to replace the battery or call an electrician to do it. They will always choose to do it themselves rather than pay someone to do it. Home owners cannot be sanctioned for working on their own homes without a license, I can. I do not use smoke detectors that "beep", so when a customer calls and says that "my" smoke detector is beeping, I know what to tell him. ( No Mr Smith, it's "your" smoke detector.)
Gene
Reliable Alarm
************
Ken, thank you for this forum,
Elmore,
not sure where you work, but NEC does not let you replace those electric house smokes unless you can get a wavier from the LAHJ and the smokes must have their sensitivity tested every year, and the home owner must maintain a monitoring agreement with a central station. The biggest question is why are so many people in this industry afraid of charging for a service call. If the client can not change the batteries you can do it for them, let them know on the phone before you go and just charge them. If it is a problem put a notice in your billings and tell them to change the batteries when they change their clocks. Your local fire department may have fliers you can use.
on another note, at rate jobs.
There are many benefit companies that will handle the paperwork for a price, but you better know the costs before you bid the job.
In new jersey the rate changes by county so make sure you know what to bid, and it is not that big a deal, two of my top fire guys make more with perks then the rate and I don't get to reduce the rate.
David from NJ